John McNAY (c1832-1858) and Elizabeth ROGERSON (1833-1875)
Family Stories > 5th GENERATION
John McNay (C1832 - 1858)
Spouse : Elizabeth Rogerson (1833 - 1875)
John and Elizabeth McNay were my Paternal 2nd Great-Grandparents - 5th Generation
1. Nola Irene Warren
2. .... George Ernest Edward Warren & Iris Ella Ford
3. .... .... Leonard Leslie Warren & Burdett Launder
4. .... .... .... Charles James Warren & Agnes McNay
5. .... .... .... .... John McNay & Elizabeth Rogerson
John McNay (C 1832 - 1858)
John McNay is one of the 'mystery people' in our family tree
Birth Probably about 1832 and most likely in Dumfries, ScotlandFather Unknown McNayMother UnknownMarriage Unknown
Death 1858, November 23 at Oakbank, SACause of Death NephritisAge at Death 26 yearsBurial Not known where John was buried. Elizabeth had to borrow money in order to have him buried.
Children 1. George McNay (1855 - 1923)2. John McNay ((1856 - 1909)3. Elizabeth (Agnes) McNay 1858 - 1944)4. Janet McNay (1861 - 1886)
John McNay - His Early Life
Almost nothing is known of John's early life, presumably in Scotland, although I do not rule out England, particularly Lancashire, as where his life may have begun.
At the end of the information known about John and Elizabeth, I will set out some of the hurdles, brick-walls, possibilities and potentials I have found when researching John's beginnings. If only I could find definitive proof of John's parents, we could research with confidence into John's background as well as his (and our) ancestry. Still searching, along with another relative our mine, Marc McNay.
I have been unable to make any inroads into John's life before he stepped onto the ship that would take him and Elizabeth half way around the world to Australia. He may have been born and lived in Scotland, or it is also possible he may have lived in England, perhaps in Lancashire. Until and unless we can positively prove his parents' names, we can take his story no further back. We have come to a stand-still in his research (and research into our ancestry).
I have included a section at the bottom of this web-page to briefly illustrate some of the paths we have searched and the reasons for these searches. There was a family of McNay's who settled in Melbourne - James McNay and his wife Jean and their children. I have a hand-written document purported to have been written by John and Elizabeth's daughter, Agnes, (my great-grandmother) which links John McNay with James McNay - but just how they are related, we have not yet discovered? But enough of that now - check this out and more at the end of the document,.
Elizabeth Rogerson (1833 - 1875)
Name Elizabeth RogersonBirth 1833, June 5 at Dryfesdale, Dumfries, ScotlandFather George Rogerson (1800 - 1869)Mother Janet Tweedie (1810 - 1848)Siblings - Margaret Rogerson (1835 - ....)
William Rogerson (1837 - ....)Janet Rogerson (1839 - ....)Sarah Rogerson (1842 - ....)Grace Rogerson (1842 - ....)James Rogerson (1845 - ....)Agness Rogerson (1848 - ....)
Marriage #2 1870, September 15 at the Primitive Methodist Chapel, Woodside, SA2. John McNay ((1856 - ....)3. Elizabeth (Agnes) McNay 1858, Feb 20 - ....)4. Janet McNay (1861, Feb 22 - ....)5. James McNay (1865 - 1921)Witnesses Samuel Sutton and Susan SuttonSpouse #2 David Chamberlain
Born C1827 at Ramsbury, Wiltshire, UKFather John ChamberlainMarried #1 1849, September 6 at Ramsbury, Wiltshire, UKSpouse #1 Amelia Emily Russ (1829, Sep 13 - ....)Died 1902, January 18 at Norwood, SA
Children 5. Albert Chamberlain (1971, Jul 11 - ....)
Death 1875, January 10 at Nairne, near Woodside, SA6. Henry Chamberlain (1873, Feb 2 - ....)Cause of Death Premature ChildbirthAge at Death 42 yearsBuried
Elizabeth Rogerson - Her Early Life
1833 - Birth
Elizabeth Rogerson was the daughter of George Rogerson and his first wife, Janet Tweedie. She was born at Dryfesdale, Dumfries in Scotland on June 5 in 1833. She was one of a large family.
The family lived in a residence in High Street, Lochmaben 1841 and after the death of her mother, Janet Tweedie in 1848 and the re-marriage of her father, George Rogerson to Agness Fleming in 1850, the family moved to the Old Mill Cottage in Lochmaben where they remained until after the death of her father, George, in 1869. Elizabeth, of course, was to leave Scotland for Australia well before this.
John and Elizabeth McNay's life Together
1854 - Immigration
On March 14, 1854, John McNay and Elizabeth Rogerson, arrived into Adelaide South Australia from Southhampton, England on board the ship "Hydrabad", having left England on December 7 in 1853. On board were the 306 passengers who had survived the voyage (314 had left England). The ship's register showed John and Elizabeth as a married couple from Dumfriesshire, Scotland, aged 24 and 22 years. John was listed as a farmhand.
The "Hydrabad" had been built in 1842 in and was 816 tons so was not a large ship, nor very new. The captain in charge of the voyage was Capt. F Castle.
With regard to John and Elizabeth's marriage, even after years of searching, I have been unable to find any evidence of a marriage, either in Scotland, England or here in Australia. Did they run away from disapproving families? Was their marriage record lost in a church fire or flood? Whatever the case, they arrived in Australia, settling in Oakbank, as a married couple.
1855 - Birth of Son - and then another
The year after their arrival, in 1855, George McNay was born to John and Elizabeth. The following year in 1856 on April 5, a brother to George, was born at Mt. Charles, Onkaparinga. This baby was named after his father and was registered as John McNay.
1857 - Purchase of a Property
By February 17, 1857, John had scraped up sufficient money to go ahead and purchase a property for his young family. He purchased Lot 14 John Street, Oakbank from John Schofield.
In the conveyance documents, John McNay is described as Yeoman, another word for farmer. Witness to the document was Otway M. Andrews of Mount Barker. Lot 14 is described as one quarter of an acre in Section No 4018 situate in the hundred of Onkaparinga and County of Adelaide. The price paid was £7.
I have a copy of the Memorial for the conveyance of the land to John McNay but for convenience sake, include a transcription of the document here -
John McNay and his wife Elizabeth and their two young children, George aged 2 years and John aged just 1 year moved into the small cottage at the property. The rates book for Oakbank, SA for the year 1858 showed John McNay as "owner of cottage and lot Oakbank." I have visited Oakbank and walked to the block of land on which their cottage stood. Today, there are neat fences between blocks and a modern house stands on the block. However, whilst speaking to older residents of Oakbank, I learned that there had been a very small dirt-floored building at the back of the block which was later used as a pig pen. Perhaps this dirt-floored building was where John and Elizabeth lived with their little family, hopeful of saving sufficient money to build a better home in the years to come.
1858 - Residence and Birth of Sister
In 1858 on February 20, George's mother gave birth to their first daughter, Elizabeth McNay (later known as Agnes McNay.) The birth certificate shows the child was born at Oakbank, probably in their small cottage at Lot 14, John Street, Oakbank. Occupation of her father, John McNay was given as 'labourer'.
A perusal of the Ratepayers Books for Onkaparinga shows that John McNay in 1858 was first listed as the owner of the Oakbank cottage for which rates of £8 were due. A note against the entry read "not yet paid."
1858 - School for Balhannah
John seems to have been an enthusiastic and interested resident of Oakbank and probably partook of the various resident activities of the time. In 1858, John McNay, notwithstanding that his oldest child was only 3 years old, signed a petition to the Chairman and Council of Onkaparinga requesting that consideration be given to building a school at Balhannah. A reproduction of that petition appears in the book "Oakbank: written by Carol Brockhoff.
There was £200 of government aid towards the building of a schoolhouse and together with the list of petitioners and subscriptions from the residents which amounted to half the required building cost. Consequently, the Council approved the request for a school at Balhannah provided that the building be at least twelve feet high and thirty feet by twenty feet in area. The schoolhouse opened in 1858.
1858 - Death of Father
But on November 23 of 1858, George McNay's father, John McNay died at 26 years of age. His death was caused by nephrites (kidney disease) and he died, presumably in his cottage at Oakbank, Balhannah, SA.
Elizabeth was in desperate need and made an application to the Council for assistance prior to John's death, and again afterwards. An application had been made to the Destitute Board by John Schoffield for payment of £3/10/-d. for expenses incurred in the interment of John's body. The claim was allowed, with a reduction of the minister's fee to 5 shillings. At the least the Chairman of the Council had given an order to allow for John's burial.
It is uncertain just where John's body was laid to rest, but it is possible he may have been buried at the consecrated cemetery of the Caledonian church at Inverbrackie which was built in 1848 beside the road from Reedy Creek mine, or perhaps at the Methodist Cemetery..
George McNay was 3 years old at the time of his father's death. His brother, John was one year and his sister, Elizabeth (Agnes) was just 9 months old.
The valuation of the cottage in John Street was now much less than what John had owed to his neighbours. The Destitute Board permitted Elizabeth two rations for the following three months.
South Australian Weekly Chronicle, December 4, 1858
George McNay was 3 years old at the time of his father's death. His brother, John was one year and his sister, Elizabeth (Agnes) was just 9 months old.
1859 - Life for Elizabeth after John's Death
The Rates Book now showed Mrs. McNay as owner of the cottage and half an acre at Oakbank. However, life for Elizabeth must have been terrible. Without her husband, she had no proper income and three children under 3 years to provide for. The rates were again £8 with a note against the amount "not yet paid."
The newspapers and government gazettes of the time reveal that Elizabeth time and again requested help from the Destitute Board with rations provided that would only have barely kept her and her family alive. May 3, 1859 she received one adult ration for 3 months; in January, 1860, one and a half rations for three months; in January, 1862, one and a half rations for three months; July 1864, one ration for three months; and so on. Without these rations, I doubt that Elizabeth and her children would have survived.
1861
Elizabeth's situation had been reduced to critical,. On February 22 in this year, she had given birth to another daughter - father unknown - baby Janet McNay. Elizabeth's application to the Destitute Board was recognised with the note that "the destitution of Mrs McNay has been increased by the birth of an illegitimate child." She was allowed one and a half rations for three months.
1865
On February 9 in this year, the Destitute Board noted that "Mrs.McNay, a widow with two illegitimate children who had been discontinued at a former meeting, again applied with no better success."
Did Elizabeth have another baby? I have found no record of such a birth, but it seems likely that the Destitute Board would have been well informed. And the fact that Elizabeth's application had been rejected in spite of her dire situation might indicate a hard-nosed approach to illegitimacy by the Board.
Note - Since writing this record, I have found another baby born to Elizabeth - Baby James McNay, born in 1865, so the Destitute Board was correct.
1870 - Re-Marriage
How Elizabeth survived in the years between 1864 and 1870 we can only imagine. It is probable that she did numerous jobs around the town - cleaning, cooking, general labouring, washing, etc. - as she could obtain the work. She certainly made sure her children were well educated during their formative years. However, at the age of 36 years, on September 15, Elizabeth agreed to marry David Chamberlain, aged 43, a widower and a farmer, also of Oakbank.
Elizabeth gave her father's name as George Rogerson, whilst David Chamberlain's father was John Chamberlain. They were married at the Primitive Methodist Chapel in Woodside. Neither Elizabeth nor David could sign their names.
1871 - Oakbank
At this time, Oakbank boasted a butcher's shop, two stores and a post office, a brewery, a wine shop and cellar, a blacksmith and wheelwright, and a cooper to make the barrels to hold ale or wine.
There were probably between 15 and 20 houses in the town. For the children, there was a school and a Primitive Methodist Church. Those who had no cow could buy their butter, cream and milk, and fruit and vegetables were produced locally. Flour for bread-making could be purchased from the mill, or for those who grew their own wheat, they could have it ground at the mill. Oakbank was fairly self-sufficient at this time.
1871 - Birth of a Son
On July 11 in 1871, Albert Chamberlain was born to Elizabeth and David. He was born at Woodside, near Oakbank, SA
1872 - Oakbank Property
The property that John McNay had managed to purchase for his family, was now listed with Mrs. Robert Gibbons in residence. The rate books show her as the owner, but this could not have been the case, as you will see later in John's son, George McNay's story.
1873 - Birth another Son
Elizabeth gave birth to another son named Henry Chamberlain on February 2 in 1873.
1875 - Death of Elizabeth
On January 10, Elizabeth, aged 41 years, died at Nairne, need Woodside. The cause of her death was given as "Premature Childbirth". Did she die from a haemorrhage after the loss of her child?
I can find no record of where Elizabeth was buried, however, David Chamberlain was buried in the Woodside Methodist Cemetery, Woodside. So perhaps Elizabeth lies there also?
David Chamberlain (2nd husband of Elizabeth Rogerson)
Born 1827, August 5 in Ramsbury, Wiltshire, EnglandFather John ChamberlainMother Charlotte KimberMarried #1 1849, September 6 in Ramsbury, Wiltshire, EnglandSpouse #1 Amelia Emily Russ
Children Lucy Chamberlain (1850 - 1806)Born 1829, September 13 in Ramsbury, WiltshireFather Joseph Russ (Shepherd)Mother Hannah DentonDeath 1869, August 18 near Oakbank, SAAge at Death 40 yearsBurial
Joseph Russ Chamberlain (1852 - 1939)John Richard Chamberlain (1854 - 1876)Ambrose Chamberlain (1856 - 1929)David Chamberlain (1857 - 1877)Ann Chamberlain (1859 - 1934)James Chamberlain (1860 - 1948)George Henry Chamberlain (1863 - 1897)William Chamberlain (1864 - 1869)Amelia Sarah Jane Chamberlain (1868 - 1938)
Married #2 1870, September 15 at Primitive Methodist Chapel, WoodsideSpouse #2 Elizabeth McNay, nee Rogerson (1833 - 1875)Children Albert Chamberlain
Born 1871, July 11 at Oakbank, SAFather David ChamberlainMother Elizabeth McNayMarriageSpouse Annie Jane Batts (1868 - 1955)Children Leonard Albert Chamberlain (1904 - 1983)Leila Doris Chamberlain (1906 - 1998)
Henry ChamberlainDeath 1914, October 4 at Semaphore, Adelaide, SAAge at Death 43 yearsBurial Cheltenham Cemetery, SA
Born 1873, February 2 at Oakbank, SAFather David ChamberlainMother Elizabeth McNayMarriage 1896Spouse Ada Jane Yeates (1877 - 1964)Children Aileen Ada Chamberlain (1904 - 1993)Death 1959, February 5 at Oakbank, SAAge at Death 86 yearsBurial Lake Terrace Cemetery, Mt. Gambier, SA
Married # 3 1883, March 20 in Mount BarkerSpouse # 3 Mary Ann Price
Death 1902, January 18 at Woodside, SAAge at Death 75 yearsBurial Woodside Methodist Cemetery, Woodside, SA