Charles James WARREN (1855-1938) and Agnes McNAY (1858-1944)
Family Stories > 4th GENERATION
Charles James Warren (1855 - 1938)
Spouse : Elizabeth (Agnes) McNay (1858 - 1944)
Charles James Warren and Agnes McNay were my Paternal Great-Grandparents - 4th Generation
1. Nola Irene Warren
2. .... George Ernest Edward Warren & Iris Ella Ford
3. .... .... Leonard Leslie Warren & Burdett Launder
4. .... .... ... Charles James Warren and Elizabeth (Agnes) McNay
Charles James Warren and Agnes (Elizabeth) McNay
CHARLES JAMES WARREN
Birth 1855, March 20 at Happy Valley, Adelaide, SA
Marriage 1874, April 14 at the dwelling house of Mr. G. McNay, Staplehurst, Agnes’ brother
Spouse Agnes (Elizabeth) McNay
Death 1938, April 3 at 97 Flinders Street, Thornbury, Victoria, at the home of his son, Leonard Leslie Warren.
Age at Death 84 years old
Cause of Death Arteriosclerosis (3 years). Cerebral Haemorrhage (1 day)
Burial 1938, April 5 at New Melbourne General Cemetery, Fawkner
Residences
1855 Happy Valley, SA,
1874 Edwardstown, SA
1899 Kaniva, Victoria
1912 26 Trinian Street, Prahran, Victoria
1913-1914 450 Malvern Road, Prahran, Victoria
1915 24 Bowen Street, Prahran, Victoria
1916 243 Williams Road, Hawksburn,
1919 4 Beresford Street, Caulfield Victoria
1920 38 Dally Street, Northcote Victoria
1931-38 97 Flinders Street, Northcote, Victoria
Occupations
1875 Butcher, Synagogue Place, SA
1885 Butcher, Thebarton, SA
1899 Labourer, Kaniva, Victoria
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ELIZABETH (AKA AGNES) McNAY
Born 1858, February 20 at Oakbank, SA
Mother Elizabeth Rogerson
Step-Father David Chamberlain
Marriage 1874, April 14 at the dwelling house of Mr. G. McNay, Staplehurst, Agnes’ brother
Spouse Charles James Warren
Children
Residences
1858 - 1874 Oakbank, South Australia
1874-1900 as per Charles James Warren
1913-1915 26 Trinian Street, Prahran, Victoria
1916 4 Beresford Street, St. Kilda
1917 57 Surrey Road, South Yarra, Victoria
1920-1924 “Kaniva”, Myola Street, Carrum,
1931-1937 4 Malane Street, Glenhuntly,
1938-1944 97 Flinders Street, Thornbury,
Death 1944, July 3 at Colchester Private Hospital, James Street, Northcote, Victoria
Cause of Death Broncho pneumonia (8 days). Chronic bronchitis (3 months). Senility
Burial 1944, July 4 at New Melbourne General Cemetery, Fawkner
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Charles James Warren and Agnes (Elizabeth) McNay
Charles was a quiet man who hardly made an impact on history, leaving little trace of his path through life. Some aspects of his life that I have been able to glean include the fact that he worked as a baker and a pasty cook. He travelled from South Australia to Kaniva with his family after his marriage to try his luck there and where he left hardly a slight footprint. Eventually, he moved his family even further east to Melbourne.
He was remembered as a gentle man. I have one old photograph of Charles, taken in his later life. It shows a man of small stature, a bit rotund and dressed in a fashion that indicated he had no aspirations for anything other than his working-class status.
Agnes McNay was the daughter of John McNay and Elizabeth Rogerson, Scottish emigrants who settled at Oakbank in South Australia where Agnes was born in 1858.
After the early death of her father just nine months after Agnes’ birth and the subsequent remarriage of her mother, Agnes and her siblings lived with her stepfather, David Chamberlain at Nairne. But it seems to have been a rocky relationship with him for after her mother’s death in 1875 when Agnes was 17 years old, she went her own way.
Agnes had a reputation as being strong, resilient, and single-minded bordering in her later years as difficult, stern and ‘hard to handle.’
It is hard to imagine a less compatible partnership between the gentle Charles Warren and the strong-minded Agnes McNay – perhaps she was more amenable in her youth? Their marriage ended in separation after the birth of their last child in 1900. Was Agnes ahead of her time, insisting on her right to live her life as she chose – separately from her husband!
Charles James Warren - His Early Years
1855 – Birth
In 1855, John Warren and his family were living in “a hut on 6 acres of land”, the value of which as recorded in the Rate Assessment Book was just £6. Imagine what life must have been like for Mary with six young children living in a hut with dirt floors, no running water, no sewerage, wood stove cooking (or open fire-pit) and oil lights or candles. In this hut, Mary gave birth to her seventh baby, Charles James Warren – the first of the Warren family to be born on Australian soil.
His birth certificate lists his father as John Warren whose occupation at the time was labourer. The mother was recorded as Mary Warren, formerly Manning. The informant was Hannah Chandler, a widow and possibly a close neighbour and helper to Mary. The birth date was March 20, 1855 and the registration date was April 26, 1855.
Life must have extremely difficult for Mary, whilst Charles who knew no better than life in a hut was probably not bothered.
In 1851, prior to the birth of Charles, the Happy Valley Public School was established and Charles’ older sister, Elizabeth’s husband, Richard Appleton, was a teacher at the school.
1859 – School
In 1859, Richard Appleton took over as head teacher at the school, teaching reading writing, arithmetic grammar, geography and history.
Once Charles was old enough, he probably attended this school to be taught by Richard Appleton. Charles’ signature was very well formed and indicates a good level of skill.
1861 – Sister, Emma’s Marriage
There would have been quite a celebration in the Warren house at Happy Valley when Charles’ sister, Emma, then aged 25 years, married William Chase, a farmer of Eyre’s Flat, South Australia.
From the marriage record, we know that their wedding was celebrated in “the dwelling house of John Warren, Happy Valley”. The hut has been transformed into a house over the past few years!!
Witnesses to the marriage were Francis Appleton, Emma’s brother-in-law, a storekeeper in Happy Valley and her father, John Warren, a farmer. Emma clearly had not had the advantage of being schooled by her brother-in-law, Richard Appleton at his school as she could only mark the register with a cross.
1866 – Development of Happy Valley
By 1866, Happy Valley was described as ‘an agricultural settlement lying near Dashwood’s Gully, a good district road connecting the two places. It lies near the postal village of O’Halloran Hill. There is a public pound and a Forester’s court in this place.’
By this time too, wheat farming had been supplemented by wine grape growing. The settlement itself, although spread over a fair distance, incorporated an array of trades, a licensed school and a chapel.
Life was looking promising for John Warren and his family in their new country.
1867 – Death of Father, John Warren
Charles was only 12 years old when his father, John Warren died from ‘apoplexy induced by vomiting’.
Whether he had been ill for some time or whether he had a sudden and severe episode of vomiting, we will never know. He died on June 23, 1867 at the age of 59 years.1869.
1869 – Re-Marriage of Mother, Mary Manning
Without her husband, life must have been difficult for Charles’ mother, Mary.
Charles was 14 years old in 1869 when his mother married a neighbour, Thomas Hales.
It is not clear whether Charles remained with his mother and new stepfather or went to live with one of his married sisters after the marriage. At 14 years old, he was certainly old enough to be working.
1876 – Grocer in Glenelg
By 1876, he was certainly working – as a grocer and living in Glenelg. We know this because in August of that year, Charles was a witness to the marriage of his youngest sister, Sarah Jane Warren to John Christie, married at the home of Sarah’s brother-in-law, Richard Appleton in Happy Valley.
On the marriage registration, Charles gave his occupation as grocer and his usual residence as Glenelg.
1879 – Baker in Edwardstown
I wonder how Charles went from grocer to baker. Whatever opportunity that came his way, he took it and started his new career in Edwardstown.
AGNES McNAY – EARLY YEARS
Her parents were John McNay and Elizabeth Rogerson who had arrived in Australia from Scotland and settled at the little settlement of Oakbank in South Australia in 1853.
John and Elizabeth’s first child named George McNay, was born in Oakbank in 1855. A second son quickly followed, named John McNay, born in 1857 also in Oakbank.
1858 – Birth
Elizabeth followed, born February 20, 1858. The little girl quickly acquired the nickname of ‘Agnes’ and this stuck with her for the rest of her life.
Birth Certificate for Elizabeth "Agnes" McNay
With three young children under the age of three years, John McNay and Elizabeth seemed to be progressing rather well. They had purchased a small house in the township of Oakbank and John was working as a labourer and was clearly very involved in the little community. John signed the petition for a new school at Balhannah and it was at this school that his children eventually received their education.
1858 - Death of Father
But at 26 years of age on November 23,1858, just nine months after the birth of Agnes (Elizabeth), John died suddenly, leaving his wife with three little children to care for and support.
1861 – Birth of Sister, Janet McNay
Another daughter was born to Agnes’ mother, Elizabeth. The baby was named Janet McNay – father ‘unknown’ – another mouth to feed. Elizabeth McNay received subsistence payments after the death of her husband as she was destitute.
She had even needed to borrow enough money to bury her husband. Nevertheless, she managed to hold onto the block of land and hut that her husband had managed to acquire at Lot 14, Oakbank for several years and this is where she raised her children. The land eventually passed to her eldest son, George McNay.
1863 – School
Agnes was an excellent scholar as the article in ‘The South Australian Advertiser’ dated Thursday, November 12, 1863 shows. School examinations had been held following which the District Board of Education members inspected the school in the Woodside area and awarded prizes to the top students.
In Mr. Whitfield’s school at Oakbank, where 45 pupils were enrolled, Agnes McNay received a 2nd place award at only 5 years of age. How proud John would have been of his clever daughter!
1870 – Re-Marriage of Mother, Elizabeth Rogerson
With children, George aged 15, John aged 14, Agnes aged 12 as well as her illegitimate daughter, Janet, aged 9, Agnes’ mother remarried on September 15, 1870.
Her second husband, and Agnes’ stepfather was David Chamberlain – a widower and local farmer, aged 43 years.
1871 – Oakbank
By 1871 when Agnes was 13 years old, Oakbank boasted a butcher’s shop, two stores, a post office, a brewery, a wine shop, a wine cellar, a blacksmith and wheelwright and a copper to make barrels to hold ale or wine. There were about 15 to 20 houses in the settlement. There was a school and a Primitive Methodist Church. Those who had no cow could buy butter, cream and milk. Fruit and vegetables were also grown locally. Flour for bread-making could be purchased from the mill, or for those who grew their own wheat, it could be ground for them at the mill. By 1981, Oakbank was self-sufficient.
Following her mother’s re-marriage, more children arrived - stepbrothers to Agnes and her siblings.
First to arrive on July 11 in 1871 was Albert Chamberlain, followed by Henry Chamberlain on February 2, 1873. No doubt as a young teenager, Agnes was expected to help with household duties and child rearing.
1874 - Admitted to Hospital
On April 29, 1874 Agnes was admitted to Adelaide Hospital, aged 16 years, for the treatment of Epilepsy. Her occupation was noted as "Servant" and her stay in hospital was 11 days.
1875 – Death of Mother, Elizabeth
As a result of a premature childbirth in January 1875, Agnes’ mother, Elizabeth died at the age of 43 years.
One cannot help wondering what, if anything, caused this calamity which left Agnes’ mother bleeding to death, possibly with 17-year-old Agnes by her side.
1875 - Admission to Hospital
Agnes, aged 17 years was again admitted to Adelaide Hospital for treatment, this time for a Fatty Tumor on her neck.
1875, February - Newspaper Notice
Two or three weeks after the death of her mother Agnes fled her stepfather’s home. Was Agnes mistreated? Did she blame her stepfather for the death of her mother? Did she feel at risk of sexual predation? Or did her personality traits, as we will discover later as being strong, serious, and perhaps opinionated, make life with her stepfather impossible for them both?
We will never know for sure, but that she left David Chamberlain’s house, we do know. David took out at least two advertisements in local newspapers around February 20, 1875 to the effect that –
AGNES McNAY having LEFT her HOME without any just cause, I shall NOT be RESPONSIBLE for any DEBTS contracted in my name without order from this date,February 17, 1875.DAVID CHAMBERLAIN
We do not know for sure where Agnes fled – it is most likely that she lived with her older brother George McNay at his home in Staplehurst for this is the place from which she was married in 1879.
Charles James Warren and Agnes McNay's Story
It is unclear just how Agnes McNay met Charles James Warren – but there is much evidence of inter-mingling between the Happy Valley and Oakbank communities at that time. Perhaps Agnes met Charles when she purchased bread from the bakery where he worked?
1879 – Marriage
On April 14, 1879, Charles James Warren at the age of 24 years married Agnes McNay aged 22, although Agnes gave her age as 20 on the marriage certificate which also shows Charles’ trade as ‘Baker’. At the time of their marriage, both bride and groom resided at Edwardstown. The marriage took place at ‘the dwelling house of Mr. G. McNay Staplehurst’ – Agnes’ eldest brother. Witnesses to the marriage were George McNay and Mrs. McNay, Agnes’ brother and mother.
Both Charles and Agnes were literate, and both had excellent handwriting as we can see from the marriage certificate.
1880 – Birth of Daughter, Myrtle May Warren
Charles and Agnes, newly married, continued to live in Edwardstown, Adelaide, where the first of their children was born – a daughter, Myrtle May Warren – on May 18, 1880.
This little girl, died at 9 months of age on March 1, 1881.
1881 – 1886 – More Children
There quickly followed several more children –
1881, May 20 – Mabel May Warren – born Hindmarsh, Adelaide, SA1883, April 26 – Clifford James Warren – born North Adelaide, SA1886, November 8 – Charles Victor Warren – born Brighton, Adelaide, SA
1886 – Kaniva, Victoria
Between 1886 and 1888, Charles and his young family decided to try their luck in Victoria and travelled by road across the border into Victoria, stopping in the small Victorian country town of Kaniva where they decided to settle.
Kaniva lies half-way between Melbourne and Adelaide. Squatter Highway Jones of South Australia discovered the country around Kaniva in 1845 and claims to have had sheep grazing there by 1846. The Tattyara run was gazetted in 1851 and the homestead was only a few kilometres from the present town site. Tattyara was named after the local aborigine tribe who inhabited the district.
The opening of a post office in April 1882 saw the town officially change its name to Kaniva. Several stores, two hotels, a mechanics institute, a school, a Wesleyan church and numerous businesses soon followed so that a thriving country town quickly developed.
1888 – 1900 – More Family Additions
Whilst Charles and Agnes were living in Kaniva, they added to their family with the following children –
1888, November 5 – Linden Melville Warren, born Kaniva, Victoria
1890, April 16 – Leonard Leslie Warren, born Kaniva, Victoria.
1891, September 27 – Ivy Olive Warren, born Kaniva, Victoria
1893 – 1894 Carol Vera (Catherine) Warren, born Kaniva, Victoria
1899 – Lloyd Loch Warren, born Kaniva, Victoria
1900 – 983 Vera Loveday Warren, born Kaniva, Victoria
The little girl, Carol Vera (Catherine) died at Kaniva, aged 8-months and is buried in the Kaniva Cemetery.
Kaniva Public School
The school opened on August 16 in 1883. The first children had to make do with church pews borrowed from the church as the new school had no desks. By 1884 there were 50 children enrolled at the school. Later a new school was built to replace the original and the new school measured 30 feet X 18 feet and had four attached rooms used as staff quarters. By May in 1887 there were 60 students enrolled and by 1888 there were 78 children.
No doubt many of Charles and Agnes’ children attended the school, however, the only record I have found was for one of their grandchildren – Percy Charles Warren, born December 1910, son of Charles Victor Warren - who was enrolled at the school in February 1918.
Whilst living in Kaniva, Charles continued to work as a baker or cook, although records indicate that he had applied for a “Permit to Occupy” land which was revoked in February 1898.
I did find one record of annual rates and valuations for Kaniva that showed Charles James Warren and family lived with a Mrs. Ann Wood in a house on land in Progress Street, Kaniva in 1892.
The Buckley Connection
The Warren family had a strong connection over many years with the Buckley family. . Here is a brief summary of the Buckley genealogy –
• Robert Darlington BUCKLEY Senior was born in Wicklow, Ireland in 1832.• He was the son of Francis BUCKLEY and Eliza DARLINGTON.• He travelled to South Australia in company with John HICKS, his wife Ellen, nee DALTON and their seven children, arriving at Portland in 1856.• That same year, Robert Darlington BUCKLEY Junior married Mary HICKS, daughter of John Hicks and Ellen DALTON. She had also been born in Wicklow, Ireland in 1832.• After their arrival at Portland, where they stayed for a short time, John HICKS purchased Allotment 16, Section 1 at Merino at auction in 1856. John Hicks, Ellen and their grandson are buried in the Merino Cemetery.• Robert Darlington BUCKLEY purchased Allotment in Turnley Street as well as a selection of acreage in Grassdale before moving north to Lawloit in the Wimmera.• Robert Darlington BUCKLEY & Mary HICKS had the following children -
- Francis BUCKLEY b. 1857 Digby, mar. Sarah MARTIN;
- John BUCKLEY b. 1859 Rifle Downs, mar. Catherine BRUDER;
- Ellen BUCKLEY b. 1860 Digby, mar. John GREY;
- Benjamin Alfred BUCKLEY b. 1862 Merino, mar. Susan WHITE;
- Mary Jane BUCKLEY b. 1866 Merino;
- Catherine Elizabeth BUCKLEY b. 1868 Merino, mar. William PARKIN;
- Robert Darlington BUCKLEY b. 1870 Merino, mar. Mabel WARREN.
Charles and Agnes’ daughter, Mabel May Warren, married Robert Darlington Buckley Jnr. in 1899 and they set up house in the Glenlee Homestead, Kaniva.
Charles’ son, Leonard Leslie Warren (my grandfather) spoke often and fondly about his life growing up in Kaniva and the relationship between the Warrens and the Buckleys. Kaniva, Warrnambool, Glenlee, Dimboola, Nhill were all towns and areas included in his recollections.
For more of the Buckley history refer to the Buckley names.
1898 – Permit to Occupy Revoked, Kaniva
In the meantime, life continued to be difficult for Charles and Agnes in Kaniva. If an occupier could not pay their licence fee or could not prove they had made sufficient improvements to the land they leased, their right to occupancy was revoked.
1900 – Separation
Despite what appears to be a happy family atmosphere at Kaniva, Charles and his wife, Agnes, separated soon after the birth of their last child, Vera Loveday Warren, born in 1900.
Over the following years, Charles and Agnes were shunted separately between their children’s homes.
1911 – 1912
Charles lived with his son, Charles Victoria Warren and his daughter-in-law, Lily May, at 26 Trinian Street in Prahran, Melbourne
1913 – 1915
Charles moved out of the Trinian Street house to live with another son at 450 Malvern Road in Prahran, whilst Agnes moved into his old room at 26 Trinian Street, Prahran. Charles remained at the Malvern Road address until just prior to 1916. Agnes then moved in 1915 - or was moved – out of Trinian Street to live with her daughter Ivy Olive and her husband William John Edwards at 4 Beresford Street in St. Kilda East.
Family stories have it that Charles would regularly visit at whichever house in which Agnes was then living to give Agnes money for living, but Agnes forbade him to venture past the front parlour where he was made to sit and wait for her appearance. Many of the family, my mother included, remembered Charles Warren as a gentle man, quietly spoken, friendly and warm, whereas Agnes was remembered as a feisty woman and ‘not an easy woman to live with.’
For much of the time after the separation of Charles and Agnes, Agnes lived with her daughter and son-in-law, William Edwards and it was said that William was the only one able to handle her temper and bad moods.
1916 – 1917
Charles moved in with his sons, Charles Victor Warren and Clifford James Warren at 243 Williams Road in Hawksburn. During these years, Agnes, still with her daughter and son-in-law, William Edwards, lived at 57 Surrey Road in South Yarra.
1919
Charles’ son, Charles Victor Warren married and he and his wife Lily May, nee Eastwood, invited him to live with them at 4 Beresford Street, St. Kilda. It seems that the family stayed very close during these years, often sharing houses. The Australian Electoral Roll showed Charles working as a Cook and his son as a Manager. The house at this address has since been demolished.
1920 – 1924
In 1920 Charles was living at 38 Dally Street Northcote.
And during this period, Agnes lived at “Kaniva”, Myola Street, Carrum, with her son, Leonard Leslie Warren and his wife, Burdett, her daughter Ivy Olive and her son-in-law, William John Edwards. Leonard Leslie Warren had built this house.
1931 – 1937
Once Agnes’ daughter and son-in-law moved to their own home at 4 Malane Street, Glenhuntly, Agnes moved with them where she remained until about 1937. The photo at the start of this history was taken of Agnes in the garden of the home at 4 Malane Street.
1938
By 1938, Leonard Leslie and Burdett Warren had purchased a house at 97 Flinders Street, Thornbury, and Charles moved in there to live with his son and daughter-in-law.
1938 – Death of Charles James Warren
The family stories were within my life-time – even though I was a small girl, I listened and remembered, and I also knew my grandfather, Leonard Leslie Warren, to have a side of his personality that was loud, pugnacious and bossy. Consequently, the family stories around the life of Charles Warren whilst he was living with his son and his ultimate death reflected what I came to know about Leonard Leslie Warren. Or course, I was not present in 1938 but most of the family stories had a commonality and consistency that leads me to include them here.
Apparently, Leonard Leslie gave his father, Charles, a pretty hard time, shouting at him and bossing him around – he often ordered his old father to march ‘quick-step’ up and down the side way of the house.
On April 3 in 1938, Charles died at the house in Flinders Street, Thornbury. He had been suffering from Arteriosclerosis (blocked arteries) for the three years prior to his death, but the actual cause of his death was a Cerebral Haemorrhage (bleeding on the brain) which he suffered on the day prior to his death. Again, the stories within the family told of the argument, the rough pushing, the stumbling fall and the smashing of his head on the path as he fell – causing the haemorrhage.
The death certificate for Charles James Warren doesn’t tell us anything of the possible circumstances around his death, just that he was 84 years old, that he had been living in Victoria for 50 years and previously in South Australia for 34 years. Also, that Charles’ children at the time of his death were listed as –
• Myrtle May, deceased• Mabel May, 55 years• Clifford James, 53 years• Charles Victor, 51 years• Linden Melville, 49 years• Leonard Leslie, 47 years• Ivy Olive, 44 years• Catherine, deceased• Lloyd Lock, 40 years• Vera Loveday, 38 years
Myrtle May Warren had died at 9 months in South Australia and Catherine at 8 months in Kaniva, Victoria.
Charles James Warren was buried in the New Melbourne General Cemetery on April 5. I wonder if Agnes attended his funeral.
1943 – Agnes to Flinders Street, Thornbury
Around this time, Agnes’ daughter and son-in-law moved out of their home in Malane Street, Glenhuntly to take up work as building caretakers at 117 Alma Road, in St. Kilda North.
As it appears there was no additional room for Agnes at the new address, it was arranged that she move in with her son, Leonard Leslie Warren and Burdett at 97 Flinders Street, Thornbury.
I cannot imagine how anyone thought this arrangement was not going to end in tragedy as both Agnes and her son, Leonard Leslie Warren had strong minds and opinions, and both had quick and fiery tempers. One can only imagine the tensions that may have existed in the household. It appears there were many cross words over a long period of time between mother and son during these years.
1944 – Death of Agnes Warren, nee McNay
In 1944 Agnes was admitted to “Colchester Private Hospital’ in James Street, Northcote where she finally died from broncho-pneumonia and chronic bronchitis with senility thrown in for good measure.
Agnes died on July 3 in 1944 at the age of 87 years. She left behind eight living children ranging from 47 to 65 years of age.
Agnes was laid to rest alongside her husband, Charles James Warren, at the New Melbourne Cemetery. I cannot believe she would have been too pleased with that decision. The words on the headstone for Charles and his wife, Agnes are poignant in that the last words are "Father & Mother Re-United."